[14:20] Latha Serevi: FYI, for folks who'd like to look around during pauses in the action, there's a mural behind us to the left, based on the work of Doug Engelbart. It's super detailed, zoom in. I put it there let you know about a conference next monday, streamed into SL over at The Tech, on collective intelligence, with some all-star speakers. [14:22] Grog Waydelich: hello again Leonel! [14:22] Andabata Mandelbrot: I had a HUGE Windows crash [14:22] Grog Waydelich: me too - I hope that is just coincidence [14:23] Andabata Mandelbrot: Let's start [14:23] Andabata Mandelbrot: ============================== [14:23] Andabata Mandelbrot: So my background [14:23] Andabata Mandelbrot: I'm a Computer Science researcher at UTAD, in Portugal [14:23] Andabata Mandelbrot: So, right across the globe from Monash! [14:24] Sleepy Littlething: UTAD? [14:24] Andabata Mandelbrot: Yes, a long-winded university name... Universidade de Trás-os-Montes e Alto Douro [14:24] Andabata Mandelbrot: 6500 students [14:25] Andabata Mandelbrot: I'm a computer scientist, but focusing on putting virtual worlds to the service of non-computer scientists [14:25] Andabata Mandelbrot: So the topic for today is that we can look at SL [14:25] Andabata Mandelbrot: as just another "platform" - as Windows, as the Web, as a cell phone. [14:26] Andabata Mandelbrot: A place where you do things... in connection with other computer systems. [14:26] Grog Waydelich: an API [14:26] Andabata Mandelbrot: Not as simple as an API... more like a User Interface [14:26] Andabata Mandelbrot: Slide 2 [14:26] Andabata Mandelbrot: ====================== [14:26] Andabata Mandelbrot: Our island is a mess [14:27] Andabata Mandelbrot: in a good sense [14:27] Andabata Mandelbrot: =================== [14:27] Andabata Mandelbrot: Slide 3 [14:27] Andabata Mandelbrot: Each small patch is assigned to a student or group [14:27] Andabata Mandelbrot: So if you visit [14:27] Andabata Mandelbrot: Utopia Portugal VI [14:27] CaptainCrunch Hax is Online [14:27] Andabata Mandelbrot: You won't find much to guide you [14:28] Andabata Mandelbrot: Yet! [14:28] Andabata Mandelbrot: (We're working on it) [14:28] Andabata Mandelbrot: There is just a small area for classes and the like. [14:28] Grog Waydelich: perhaps you can take us there later? [14:28] Andabata Mandelbrot: Delighted. [14:28] Profdan Netizen: That would be cool. [14:28] Andabata Mandelbrot: But the "juice" of most of these is what you don't see [14:28] Grog Waydelich: btw I should ask - is it ok to 'back channel' like this while you talk? [14:29] Andabata Mandelbrot: I have no trouble with that. [14:29] Grog Waydelich: don't let the back channel slow down your delivery [14:29] Andabata Mandelbrot: That's why I use the "==================" from time to time [14:29] Andabata Mandelbrot: To mark text associated with a slide. [14:29] Andabata Mandelbrot: OK, we won't be talking about all of these, of course. [14:30] Andabata Mandelbrot: Slide 4, I mean [14:30] Andabata Mandelbrot: ============================== [14:30] Andabata Mandelbrot: Two groups of examples: education first, business afterwards [14:30] Andabata Mandelbrot: ================================== [14:30] Grog Waydelich: soccer? [14:30] Andabata Mandelbrot: This a class for handball coaches. [14:30] Andabata Mandelbrot: All players are bots [14:31] Grog Waydelich: is the movement fast enough? [14:31] Andabata Mandelbrot: (Yes!) [14:31] Sleepy Littlething: i'd love to see that in action [14:31] Andabata Mandelbrot: One of the people in the audience is the teacher of coaches. [14:31] Decka Mah: me too [14:31] Andabata Mandelbrot: Actually, there is a video on this pitch. [14:31] Andabata Mandelbrot: But this comes from... [14:31] Andabata Mandelbrot: (SLIDE) [14:32] Andabata Mandelbrot: ========================================== [14:32] Andabata Mandelbrot: A system outside Second Life. [14:32] Grog Waydelich: I've heard of SL used to rehearse plays, but not sport - interesting [14:32] Andabata Mandelbrot: The teacher first defines offensive movements with this software we developed. [14:32] Andabata Mandelbrot: Those moves are stored on a Web server (soon, on a Learning Management System) [14:32] Grog Waydelich: both involve coordination of teams of people moving around space [14:33] Andabata Mandelbrot: (Indeed! And business are finding this interesting for training of attendants) [14:33] Grog Waydelich: attendants? [14:33] Andabata Mandelbrot: For training clerks, people in real-life situations, for practice [14:33] Andabata Mandelbrot: =================== [14:33] Chodron Whybrow: situational training? [14:34] Andabata Mandelbrot: Exactly [14:34] Andabata Mandelbrot: But for now, it's handball! [14:34] Andabata Mandelbrot: The teacher is in Second Life, and can "summon" an offensive movement stored in the server. [14:34] Grog Waydelich: that looks like a football coach's whiteboard [14:34] Andabata Mandelbrot: Just as he could show a video or diagram in a regular class. [14:34] Sleepy Littlething: so the moves are stored on the webserver - how do they get transfered to SL? [14:34] Andabata Mandelbrot: It is! [14:35] Andabata Mandelbrot: Can we go back one slide? [14:35] Andabata Mandelbrot: The whiteboard is just for defining the movements. [14:35] Andabata Mandelbrot: Then they are reproduced automatically. [14:35] Grog Waydelich: those players are bots right? [14:35] Andabata Mandelbrot: Exactly [14:35] Andabata Mandelbrot: The server commands them all, to follow the stored movements. [14:36] Andabata Mandelbrot: For now, we are just moving them. [14:36] Decka Mah: I have seen this done manually in SL with people moving little cylinders to represent people to plan World of Warcraft raids using the textures of the dungeons on the floor. [14:36] Sleepy Littlething: lol [14:36] Andabata Mandelbrot: :-) [14:36] Andabata Mandelbrot: The nice part here is that the teacher can replay not only the full movement [14:36] Andabata Mandelbrot: but also just one "time frame" at a time. [14:36] Sleepy Littlething: so what do you use to get the info from the server to SL? [14:36] Andabata Mandelbrot: The server logs the bots and commands them directly. [14:36] Sleepy Littlething: very useful [14:36] Andabata Mandelbrot: Movement is simple [14:37] Andabata Mandelbrot: Now we are defining gestures and storing them in the bots, so they can reproduce those, too [14:37] Andabata Mandelbrot: And the tricky part is the ball [14:37] Andabata Mandelbrot: To synchronize passing it from one player to another. [14:37] Grog Waydelich: is the ball an avi? [14:37] Andabata Mandelbrot: That's what we are trying now. [14:37] Andabata Mandelbrot: No, but that's actually a nice idea!!! [14:38] Grog Waydelich: might be easier to script it, than do physics [14:38] Decka Mah: Do all the bots count in the sim limit of 40? [14:38] Andabata Mandelbrot: The ball is now an attachment that moves away from a player, disappears, and an identical ball shows up in the new player [14:38] Latha Serevi: It's probably not your focus today, but I'm curious how hard it is to do precise movements given lag issues and the possibility of the controlling computer being out of sync with the sim w.r.t. where the avatar is. [14:38] Andabata Mandelbrot: They are all pre-rezzed, but hidden "inside" the players [14:39] Andabata Mandelbrot: Since SL is sim-server based, we use one player bot to send messages to the others [14:39] Andabata Mandelbrot: And so far, it works [14:39] Andabata Mandelbrot: It may not be 100% proof, but it works. [14:39] Grog Waydelich: do you have a video on YouTube? [14:39] Andabata Mandelbrot: And the point is that SL here is just a user interface, a platform for a system [14:40] Andabata Mandelbrot: Yes [14:40] Andabata Mandelbrot: But an old one (slow movements) [14:40] Andabata Mandelbrot: But I didn't mean to go over each example in detail... [14:40] Profdan Netizen: So instead of a 2d browser, an immersive platform? [14:40] Andabata Mandelbrot: ...to avoid boring people here. [14:40] Andabata Mandelbrot: Exactly, Profdan. [14:40] Grog Waydelich: I think to get value out of SL and similar technology, you really need to find the "3d angle" (like this example) [14:41] Andabata Mandelbrot: (SLIDE) [14:41] Grog Waydelich: well, maybe it's 2d, but it is spatial [14:41] Andabata Mandelbrot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlVQ4hfbcW4 [14:41] Andabata Mandelbrot: OK, this is a typical class in SL [14:42] Andabata Mandelbrot: There are two systems under development here to support such classes [14:42] Andabata Mandelbrot: By the way, these are hands-on, not lectures. [14:42] Grog Waydelich: what is being taught here? SL skills? [14:42] Andabata Mandelbrot: Computer Programming 101 :-) [14:42] Grog Waydelich: using LSL? [14:42] Andabata Mandelbrot: Yup! [14:42] Grog Waydelich: wow [14:42] Andabata Mandelbrot: http://fie.engrng.pitt.edu/fie2008/papers/1575.pdf [14:43] Grog Waydelich: do the skills transfer to other programming scenarios well enough? [14:43] Andabata Mandelbrot: Yup! (But possibly that's a bit off-topic today?) [14:43] Andabata Mandelbrot: (I don't really know if you prefer to stick to the theme or chat away...) [14:43] Grog Waydelich: are students 'together IRL in a lab' , or distant/ online [14:43] josmas Flores: chat away :) [14:43] Andabata Mandelbrot: That's actually the PhD thesis of one of my students. [14:43] Grog Waydelich: sorry don't let me interupt [14:43] Sleepy Littlething: maybe a discussion at the end? [14:43] josmas Flores: and mine [14:44] Andabata Mandelbrot: I'm love to chat about this. [14:44] Andabata Mandelbrot: There are plenty English-language papers from that student of mine, like the URL I just provided. [14:44] Andabata Mandelbrot: But at least a couple of students are now employed in large companies, so their Second Life programming didn't hurt! [14:45] Chodron Whybrow: Because? [14:45] Andabata Mandelbrot: OK, back to why I showed this... [14:45] Andabata Mandelbrot: =========================== [14:45] Andabata Mandelbrot: When you assign tasks to students in a typical Web-based system [14:46] Andabata Mandelbrot: you can provide elements, texts, accept assignments and deliver others, etc. [14:46] Andabata Mandelbrot: Not so if you want to provide assignments in SL. [14:46] Andabata Mandelbrot: For large classes, this is a problem. [14:46] Andabata Mandelbrot: So, another system we're developing is to allow you to create a "SL assignment" in a Learning Management System [14:46] Andabata Mandelbrot: (think Moodle, Blackboard, etc) [14:47] Andabata Mandelbrot: and provide students with SL objects, notecards, textures... all easily as if providing elements for other assignemtns. [14:47] Profdan Netizen: So the assignment is created in the LMS, and shows up in SL? [14:47] Andabata Mandelbrot: And being able to see, on the Web site, which assignments were delivered, side by side: SL-assignments, Web-assignments, other... [14:47] Andabata Mandelbrot: Yes. [14:47] CaptainCrunch Hax is Offline [14:47] Andabata Mandelbrot: That's not entirely functional yet [14:48] Andabata Mandelbrot: But we're working on it [14:48] Grog Waydelich: each student would have to individually upload textures, notes etc into SL? [14:48] Andabata Mandelbrot: And the point is: to think of SL as another platform, not as something detached from day-to-day [14:48] Andabata Mandelbrot: Depends. [14:48] Profdan Netizen: That's the only way it's going to be educationally, at least on any significant scale. [14:48] Andabata Mandelbrot: Suppose you wanted to ask them to combine specific textures in some way [14:49] Andabata Mandelbrot: You could provide them, as if they were "a restricted list of fabrics" [14:49] Andabata Mandelbrot: And students can work with them [14:49] Grog Waydelich: You'd show them a screenshot of the 'after' image? [14:49] Andabata Mandelbrot: There was someone here from a art&fashion school, right? [14:49] josmas Flores: suppose you know there's a sloodle module for that? [14:50] Andabata Mandelbrot: I know there is a lot of this in Sloodle. [14:50] Andabata Mandelbrot: SLoodle is a good example [14:50] Andabata Mandelbrot: But Sloodle is quite focused on providing access in SL to content that you have in Moodle. [14:50] Andabata Mandelbrot: (although it has some modules for submitting projects, etc) [14:50] Andabata Mandelbrot: But we want to think of it the other way around: [14:50] Grog Waydelich: I'd be interested to hear later how students take to SL. Any resistance? Discuss later. [14:51] Andabata Mandelbrot: ... to be able to manage, as seamlessly as possible, an SL activity as you would another learning activity. [14:51] josmas Flores: sounds cool [14:51] Andabata Mandelbrot: For instance, suppose the assignment was a theatre play [14:51] Profdan Netizen: So SL would be like the browser students use to get the stuff in LMS [14:52] Andabata Mandelbrot: You'd provide students with a "recorder" object, and be able to watch the play from any angle later, even if just with placeholders or bots, not the actual student avatars - but you'd have the positions and the chat. [14:52] Andabata Mandelbrot: All from within the LMS [14:52] Andabata Mandelbrot: ======================= [14:52] Andabata Mandelbrot: Another issue is controlling access [14:53] Andabata Mandelbrot: Suppose this is a class that trainees paid for [14:53] Andabata Mandelbrot: But you have 400+ trainees, plus dozens of teachers, and all of that on a Web server. [14:53] Andabata Mandelbrot: You don't want to edit Second Life's access and ban restrictions for each session [14:53] Andabata Mandelbrot: But you want to allow only the people that paid. [14:53] Andabata Mandelbrot: That's another example of using SL as a platform: [14:54] Andabata Mandelbrot: use the enrollment data already on a training system to control who can, at a specific time, access a class here in SL. [14:54] Andabata Mandelbrot: (SLIDE= [14:54] Andabata Mandelbrot: ======================= [14:54] Andabata Mandelbrot: This is another issue for widespread use of SL [14:54] Andabata Mandelbrot: Any guesses? [14:54] Profdan Netizen: Grades? [14:54] Chodron Whybrow: time [14:55] Andabata Mandelbrot: Presence/Absence! [14:55] Sleepy Littlething: like changing land permissions for different times of day? [14:55] Andabata Mandelbrot: (yes, sleepy, automatically, that's the point) [14:55] MissAnnie Ducatillon: oh i'd like automatic tracking of presence/absence [14:55] Andabata Mandelbrot: Supose I want to move a couple of my classes to SL: I need (university requirements) to track presence/absence. [14:55] Profdan Netizen: So when a student rezzes, their presence is recorded... [14:55] Andabata Mandelbrot: And every 5 seconds... [14:56] Grog Waydelich: when they rez close to you ... [14:56] Andabata Mandelbrot: ...so you get a graph in Moddle at the end of class... [14:56] Andabata Mandelbrot: ...and you decide whether someone present, say 50% of the class should get a "presence" or an "absence". [14:56] Andabata Mandelbrot: And let the system assign presences/absences automatically in some cases. [14:57] Profdan Netizen: sounds incredibly useful. [14:57] Andabata Mandelbrot: The point is: think of SL integrated in what you use now (Moodle, etc.) not of having a different program just for SL. [14:57] Andabata Mandelbrot: ================================ [14:57] Andabata Mandelbrot: This is an example for marketing researcher [14:57] Andabata Mandelbrot: *research [14:58] Andabata Mandelbrot: This avatar is choosing a t-shirt. [14:58] Andabata Mandelbrot: ================ [14:58] Andabata Mandelbrot: Trying it on... [14:58] Andabata Mandelbrot: But his choice was recorded on a backend server [14:58] Andabata Mandelbrot: ========================== [14:58] Andabata Mandelbrot: Then people who bought on-line can also buy the physical t-shirt [14:58] Grog Waydelich: now these are real shirts? [14:58] Andabata Mandelbrot: Yes! [14:59] Sleepy Littlething: cool [14:59] Andabata Mandelbrot: But people can CHANGE their minds once they have the real t-shirt on their hands [14:59] Andabata Mandelbrot: And we track their preferences. [14:59] Andabata Mandelbrot: So we have a system for knowing how good/bad SL is as a market research tool for a product [14:59] Grog Waydelich: changing minds in RL has more consequences [15:00] Andabata Mandelbrot: The point is: will people choose the same t-shirt? Or change when they see the real thing? [15:00] Andabata Mandelbrot: And how many change if they had seen the t-shirt on a Web site instead of SL [15:00] Andabata Mandelbrot: The application behind, registering, is the key to analyze this. [15:00] Andabata Mandelbrot: ============================== [15:01] Andabata Mandelbrot: We developed our own tech for sending/receiving SMS in SL [15:01] Andabata Mandelbrot: And for linking to MS Messenger, AIM, ICQ... [15:01] Grog Waydelich: one of the PhDs in my dept is on e-commerce with websites that allow consumers to "try on" sunglasses etc [15:01] Andabata Mandelbrot: =========================== [15:01] Grog Waydelich: placing glasses over an uploaded photo [15:02] Andabata Mandelbrot: And we are now using that tech to solve what I think is a major prbolem for corporate presence in SL [15:02] Andabata Mandelbrot: Or institutional presence in general. [15:02] Andabata Mandelbrot: Empty information desks! [15:02] Grog Waydelich: problem being connection of SL to other systems? [15:02] Andabata Mandelbrot: No, [15:02] Andabata Mandelbrot: Problem is... you expect people to be present in SL [15:02] Decka Mah: wOOt!!! I need this [15:02] Andabata Mandelbrot: To assist you, for you to chat... [15:03] Profdan Netizen: Yes, SL often like a ghost town. [15:03] Andabata Mandelbrot: You don't think of a Web page as being "lonely" [15:03] Andabata Mandelbrot: But an empty sim... is lonely [15:03] Grog Waydelich: employ hungry students [15:03] josmas Flores: so true [15:03] Andabata Mandelbrot: But an organization can't afford to have someone in SL, staffing a desk [15:03] Andabata Mandelbrot: just looking at the sky waiting for people to arrive [15:03] Andabata Mandelbrot: And students will get fed up, just being there, waiting. [15:04] Andabata Mandelbrot: So, this system works like this (there is a paper submitted to VS-GAMES) [15:04] Andabata Mandelbrot: - you assemble a team of people to staff the desk [15:04] Decka Mah whispers we experimented with having a bell on the desk and the email makes the help desk person log in [15:04] Andabata Mandelbrot: - get those people to provide MSN Messenger contacts and cellphone numbers [15:04] Grog Waydelich: outcome of experiment? [15:05] Andabata Mandelbrot: - it works - we just developed the technology, now we need to test. [15:05] Andabata Mandelbrot: (but let me explain) [15:05] Xilin Yifu: will this technology be openly available at some point? [15:05] Latha Serevi: A product aimed at addressing this need in SL is ChatBridge by InterSection (Chase Marellan's company). Seems well done. [15:05] Decka Mah raises hand and shouts "Pick me" [15:05] Andabata Mandelbrot: - make a priority list: 1st Jane, 2nd John, 3rd Susan... [15:05] Blue Revolution is Offline [15:06] Grog Waydelich: (folks we are delayed due to crashes etc .. if anyone needs to go, don't be embarassed) [15:06] Andabata Mandelbrot: - The system then logs on a bot at the desk [15:06] Andabata Mandelbrot: - If you chat to the bot, or IM it... [15:06] Andabata Mandelbrot: - ... the highest online priority staffer gets that on his/her Messenger [15:06] Andabata Mandelbrot: - and can reply the same way, and it also arrives as chat/IM [15:06] Zen Zeddmore is Offline [15:06] Andabata Mandelbrot: - and even maintain a conversation with several people [15:07] Andabata Mandelbrot: - if no-one is on-line... [15:07] Andabata Mandelbrot: - the first staffer gets an SMS [15:07] Andabata Mandelbrot: - and can reply the same way [15:07] Andabata Mandelbrot: So: [15:07] Andabata Mandelbrot: - if the conversation is trivial, this solves it [15:07] Andabata Mandelbrot: -if it is interesting, [15:07] Grog Waydelich: staff replies with SMS? [15:08] Andabata Mandelbrot: the staffer says "I'll be summoning someone that can better provide an answer", and that's when someone actually logs into SL [15:08] Andabata Mandelbrot: staff replies with IM or SMS - the point is, the information desk is staffed, people have someone to talk to, not just "drop boxes" or "take notecard" [15:08] Xilin Yifu: great idea :-) [15:09] Andabata Mandelbrot: And people don't have to be "looking at the sky", they can be doing their day to day work, and log in to SL only when it is justified. [15:09] Grog Waydelich: yes that is a recognized problem for the corporates in SL [15:09] Andabata Mandelbrot: This is something that looks quite common [15:09] Andabata Mandelbrot: ================================== [15:09] Andabata Mandelbrot: If I move near those billboards... [15:09] Andabata Mandelbrot: They change. Common, right? [15:09] Andabata Mandelbrot: =================================== [15:09] Andabata Mandelbrot: But the point is... [15:10] Andabata Mandelbrot: ..."as a platform", remember? [15:10] Andabata Mandelbrot: =================================== [15:10] Andabata Mandelbrot: What matters is that there is something more than just SL behind [15:10] Sleepy Littlething: sorry - it didn't rez for me - what was the difference in the slides? [15:10] Grog Waydelich: I'd need the English version of this :-) [15:10] Andabata Mandelbrot: The first slide had a "P" and a texture on the billboards. [15:11] Andabata Mandelbrot: (the point is that this is a "system" - don't mind the text now) [15:11] Andabata Mandelbrot: The second slide showed me near the billboards [15:11] Andabata Mandelbrot: And they automatically changed to "A" and a different texture [15:11] Sleepy Littlething: ah [15:11] Andabata Mandelbrot: The point is: it was not "all in SL code". [15:11] Sleepy Littlething: they're rezing now [15:11] Sleepy Littlething: thanks [15:11] Andabata Mandelbrot: The billboards contacted an external system [15:11] Andabata Mandelbrot: That in this case only looked at my initial. [15:12] Andabata Mandelbrot: But could just as easily look at whether I'm a student/teacher/visitor [15:12] Decka Mah whispers Are these slides up on slideshare? [15:12] Andabata Mandelbrot: or at my purchasing history [15:12] Andabata Mandelbrot: whatever [15:12] Andabata Mandelbrot: . [15:12] Andabata Mandelbrot: The external system makes the choice of texture and commands the behaviour of the billboards. [15:12] Andabata Mandelbrot: And actually, we are developing a version of this for real-life billboards... so the same system will work in SL and RL! [15:13] Andabata Mandelbrot: (SL) [15:13] Grog Waydelich: are you producing an LSL library? [15:13] Andabata Mandelbrot: Not at the mooment [15:13] Andabata Mandelbrot: Because most of this is quite simple from the programming point of view [15:13] Andabata Mandelbrot: What was hard was figuring out HOW to use SL in this manner. [15:13] Andabata Mandelbrot: (SLIDE) [15:13] Decka Mah: you could also do chat searches to show results [15:13] Andabata Mandelbrot: Indeed! [15:13] Grog Waydelich: for later discussion: how is the SL-RL connection programmed - I have only done it with PHP calls [15:14] Grog Waydelich: Thanks Leonel, that was a *great* talk [15:14] Andabata Mandelbrot: You use PHP calls (or ASPX, or JSP - we've actually used all three) [15:14] Andabata Mandelbrot: And you go into SL using XML-RPC or using libopenmv or the open source client. [15:14] Sleepy Littlething: ty :) [15:14] Grog Waydelich: I will save a transcript on the researcher group wiki,, URL on the board to our left [15:15] Andabata Mandelbrot: =============== [15:15] Grog Waydelich: Are you able to make the slides available on the web? [15:15] jokay Wollongong is Online [15:15] Andabata Mandelbrot: So this was the "examples" set I wanted to show. [15:15] Andabata Mandelbrot: Now I'm open for chat on how to expand SL use in this way: as a platform for human activities, not as a "separate place". [15:15] josmas Flores: very interesting indeed [15:16] Sleepy Littlething: interesting view point [15:16] Andabata Mandelbrot: ================= [15:16] Andabata Mandelbrot: ONE LAST THING (SORRY) [15:16] Andabata Mandelbrot: =================== [15:16] Decka Mah: Wonderful presentation Andabata. Are you looking for trial sites for th chat bot? I am seeking soemone to do that with us? [15:16] Andabata Mandelbrot: ================== [15:17] Andabata Mandelbrot: I am organizing a multi-polar conference next year [15:17] Andabata Mandelbrot: that will be held in SL [15:17] Andabata Mandelbrot: but with physical poles for people to attend [15:17] Andabata Mandelbrot: so hundreds can join, not just dozens. [15:17] Andabata Mandelbrot: It's SLACTIONS 2009 [15:17] Grog Waydelich: where are the physical locations planned to be? [15:17] Andabata Mandelbrot: www.slactions.org [15:17] Andabata Mandelbrot: Currently: [15:18] Andabata Mandelbrot: California, Texas, Brazil (2), Portugal, Belgium, Finland, Israel, Hong Kong [15:18] Andabata Mandelbrot: In talks: Spain, Khazakstan, India, Singapore, Australia [15:18] Sleepy Littlething: what's the focus? [15:18] Andabata Mandelbrot: Life, imagination, and work using metaverse platforms [15:19] Andabata Mandelbrot: (not just Second Life) [15:19] Andabata Mandelbrot: Basically: doing scientific research related to virtual worlds [15:19] Andabata Mandelbrot: The Call for Papers is open until the end of February. [15:19] Sleepy Littlething: do you have a link? [15:20] Andabata Mandelbrot: http://www.slactions.org/ [15:20] Andabata Mandelbrot: ===================== [15:20] Andabata Mandelbrot: Sorry for the plug [15:20] Chodron Whybrow: Will vw platforms replace web platform? [15:20] Andabata Mandelbrot: But I'm one of the organizers, and I really think it will be a great conference. should we keep meeting weekly? See upcoming schedule at the URL on the left-hand board [15:21] Andabata Mandelbrot: I think the Web and virtual worlds will co-exist for a long time. [15:21] josmas Flores: me too :) [15:21] Chodron Whybrow: co-exist, hmm, thanks. [15:22] Chodron Whybrow: Amazing to me how quickly the mass media has picked up on web 2.0 -- now ubiquitous. [15:22] Decka Mah: Convergence is the future I see [15:22] Chodron Whybrow: But sl is slower to be taken up by librarians. How about your students? [15:22] Grog Waydelich: To me the principal difference between web and vw (from user point of view) is (1) 3d and (2) mostly synchronous. I expect there will always be a place for both 2d and 3d, and both synch and asynch. [15:23] Rowan Thursday: Need to get going now, so goodbye everyone- bye Kaylee and Bern- and see you later Annie. [15:23] Decka Mah: Librarians...noooo....they are a huge active group both here and on the teen grid [15:23] Xilin Yifu: bye rowan! [15:23] Andabata Mandelbrot: It's a tricky thing with students. [15:23] Chodron Whybrow: Some librarians...I am one! [15:23] MissAnnie Ducatillon: see you later, Rowan [15:23] Andabata Mandelbrot: About a third don't like the idea of using it. [15:23] Lefresne Bernard: See-you, rowan :-) [15:23] Andabata Mandelbrot: Not really sure why [15:23] Chodron Whybrow: Why? [15:24] Chodron Whybrow: Learning curve? [15:24] Andabata Mandelbrot: Mostly, I think they don't see the point. [15:24] Andabata Mandelbrot: Not really an issue of learning curve. [15:24] Andabata Mandelbrot: But these are Computer Science students. [15:24] Andabata Mandelbrot: And CS people are typically dismissive of virtual worlds. [15:24] Grog Waydelich: btw I think the idea of conferences in both RL and SL is great. (truly "in SL" not just broadcast). The first time I saw that was at avww.org last week and it was just fantastic. [15:24] Chodron Whybrow: Right and they've probably seen more fun apps [15:25] Sleepy Littlething: the graphics don't compare to games [15:25] Xilin Yifu: yes...avww was fantastic! [15:25] Andabata Mandelbrot: Yes Grog, we're in talks with Mandy from avww.org for the Australian chapter - but nothing's settled yet. [15:25] Andabata Mandelbrot: It is not something that easy to understand. [15:25] Andabata Mandelbrot: (games, graphics, etc., I mean) [15:26] Chodron Whybrow: Is there any sector that won't find facility for their field in vw? [15:26] Andabata Mandelbrot: The students basically seemed to feel that "we're here for REAL computer science", not virtual worlds. [15:26] Andabata Mandelbrot: As I've said this is only about a third of them [15:26] Grog Waydelich: But students might prefer graphics and gameplay of, say, WoW, but they will not be able to take classes in it [15:26] Sleepy Littlething: interesting - and what about after you go them to do the programmoing 101? Did views change? [15:27] Grog Waydelich: Maybe the focus on connecting SL to RL systems such as web servers and databases would lower student concerns [15:27] Profdan Netizen: Graphics of SL sure beats Blackboard or Angel. [15:27] Andabata Mandelbrot: Not really. Many of these didn't like programming - they were focusing on analysis (UML diagrams, E-R relationships, etc.) [15:27] Andabata Mandelbrot: There was a group who developed an integration between a 3D device and SL [15:28] Andabata Mandelbrot: and had a supervisor from 3Dconnexion [15:28] Andabata Mandelbrot: but still the next year moved to a different project [15:28] Grog Waydelich: Maybe CS students are better at visualizing abstract data than other people, and don't see the point of 3d [15:28] Andabata Mandelbrot: saying they wanted "something more related to what companies need" [15:28] Andabata Mandelbrot: Even though they had a supervisor from a company! [15:28] Xilin Yifu: isn't the point of vw's like sl the human-human interactivity rather than just human-machine interactivity? [15:28] Andabata Mandelbrot: It must be said that most of the project I've shown are in connection with actual companies. [15:29] Grog Waydelich: CS students want to become good at human-machine and machine-machine [15:29] Andabata Mandelbrot: Some with the research arm of Portugal's major telecom, Portugal Telecom [15:29] Andabata Mandelbrot: Others with a local SL developer business, Beta Technologies [15:29] Andabata Mandelbrot: And other have attracted attention from other companies. [15:29] Andabata Mandelbrot: Just last summer, a student went to England for a traineeship at Clicks & Links [15:30] Andabata Mandelbrot: So, as you can see, there is quite a connection to the business world. [15:30] Andabata Mandelbrot: But still, one must work to make students believe it is really of use. [15:30] Grog Waydelich: It is pretty normal in 1st year CS to use a 'fun' or 'graphical' programming environment .. are the students aware of that? They are getting a pretty good environment [15:30] Chodron Whybrow: Any predictions about how big vw will become for business? [15:31] Andabata Mandelbrot: human-to-human in virtual worlds needs many tools to suport decent activities. [15:31] Andabata Mandelbrot: For instance, notice how I had o ask Grog to change slides. [15:31] Grog Waydelich: I'm thinking of BlueJ and similar tools for teaching programming. They are not used in business, but are a stepping stone to 'real' programming tools. Students should be aware of that. [15:31] Andabata Mandelbrot: It should have been much simpler. [15:31] Xilin Yifu: i agree [15:32] Andabata Mandelbrot: I think things are changing [15:32] Andabata Mandelbrot: I've been on this since 2006. [15:32] Andabata Mandelbrot: And I think the current students are approaching this differently. [15:32] Andabata Mandelbrot: But I will only know for sure next semester. [15:32] josmas Flores: keep us posted :P [15:32] josmas Flores: :) [15:32] Sleepy Littlething: sorry everyone - I have to go - good night - hope to see you next time [15:33] Sleepy Littlething: Thank you Andabata for a great talk [15:33] Xilin Yifu: bye sleepy [15:33] Grog Waydelich: good morning! [15:33] Andabata Mandelbrot: Thank you all for showing [15:33] Chodron Whybrow: Really interesting! ty! [15:33] josmas Flores: it was very interesting andabata [15:34] LittleToe Bartlett: yes, a good one, thank you. [15:34] Lefresne Bernard: Sounds good, thank-you :-) [15:34] Decka Mah: thanks this was great Andabata [15:34] josmas Flores: and quite similar to what i'm doing, so even more interesting for me :) [15:34] Xilin Yifu: thank you very much Andabata [15:34] Andabata Mandelbrot: Do get in touch! [15:34] Chodron Whybrow: Can we get a transcript? [15:34] Grog Waydelich: more detail josmas? [15:34] Andabata Mandelbrot: And I'm glad that you enjoyed. [15:34] LittleToe Bartlett: back to virtual gold leafing for me... see you next time. :) [15:35] Sleepy Littlething: lol Grog - you're fishing for a presenter ;) [15:35] MissAnnie Ducatillon: bye sleepy [15:35] josmas Flores: detail grog? [15:35] Grog Waydelich: take the bait josmas [15:36] Grog Waydelich: ok, next week, back to the usual day/time .. Tuesday 1400 SLT (Wed 9am in eastern AUstralia) [15:36] Decka Mah: thanks Grog for organising [15:36] josmas Flores: right, i'm trying to explain advanced concepts of software engineering though games and SL [15:37] Grog Waydelich: I tried to teach database design / SQL through a (ridiculously simple) MMORPG a couple of years back [15:37] josmas Flores: sounds good [15:37] josmas Flores: did it work? [15:37] Andabata Mandelbrot: We had a student that tried to simulate a company in SL [15:37] Andabata Mandelbrot: But it didn't work out very well. [15:37] Grog Waydelich: I have a conference paper describing it, see http://www.dis.unimelb.edu.au/staff/gwadley/ [15:38] josmas Flores: thanks for thelink grog [15:38] Grog Waydelich: I thought it went well - the idea was to emphasize mutli-user access to data (and the problems it brings) [15:38] Grog Waydelich: The usual architecture for database students is one client connecting to one server. [15:38] josmas Flores: yeah, good point [15:39] Andabata Mandelbrot: I'll definitely look into it [15:39] Grog Waydelich: By visualizing the game-world, students see the data changing, and see what goes wrong sometimes with concurrent access to data, if transcations are not used [15:39] josmas Flores: so they can have an embodied experience, instead of trying to imagine it [15:39] josmas Flores: cool [15:39] Grog Waydelich: Greg Wadley and Jason Sobell (2007) Using a simple MMORPG to teach Multi-user, Client-server Database Development [15:40] Grog Waydelich: I guess it could be taught a million ways, but I thought the MMORPG captured the spirit of 2006 :-) [15:40] josmas Flores: :D [15:41] Grog Waydelich: In 2007 I used a 'social networking site' example ... [15:41] Grog Waydelich: Facebook ripoff [15:41] Sleepy Littlething: g'night all (again) [15:41] Grog Waydelich: But yeah, there were a few complaints about the job-relevance, oh well [15:42] Andabata Mandelbrot: Anyone into ways to define choreography in SL easier? [15:42] Grog Waydelich: bye Sleepy [15:42] josmas Flores: Andab, can i ask if your students have papers ont his? [15:42] Andabata Mandelbrot: Yes. [15:42] Andabata Mandelbrot: All papers from my students are at http://home.utad.pt/~leonelm/ [15:42] Andabata Mandelbrot: The PhD students in English, the others in Portuguese [15:42] josmas Flores: great, will have a look [15:43] josmas Flores: can read portuguese, no bother ;-) [15:43] Andabata Mandelbrot: But we are now starting to submit to international venues, so English versions of the best works should be available within a few months. [15:43] Grog Waydelich: Does having to teach bi-lingually add a large burden to your job?? [15:43] Andabata Mandelbrot: Still, plenty in English. [15:43] Andabata Mandelbrot: It's not usual to teach bi-lingually [15:43] Andabata Mandelbrot: 99% of my students are Portuguese [15:44] Grog Waydelich: but PhD writing is in English? [15:44] Andabata Mandelbrot: Depends. [15:44] Decka Mah: has anyone come up with a good system for storing avatar IDs in an address book that links to RL ids? [15:44] Andabata Mandelbrot: But we require that they submit papers to international conferences and journals - to get a wider feedback. [15:44] Andabata Mandelbrot: I'd want that! [15:44] Decka Mah: I hate that I can't search the notes field of my friends list [15:45] Andabata Mandelbrot: I'd love an Outlook hack to have a "avatar" field in contacts! [15:45] Andabata Mandelbrot: (I know I can create a custom form)´ [15:45] Decka Mah: There is a great programming job for you next semeester Andabata [15:45] josmas Flores: :D [15:45] Andabata Mandelbrot: It is actually easy... But somehow never had thought of it [15:45] Profdan Netizen: Andabata, have you talked with anyone at Angel learning systems about LMS/SL integration? [15:45] Decka Mah: need multiple avatars for allt he 3D worlds and game avs [15:45] Andabata Mandelbrot: No, but I must say I've thought about it. [15:46] Andabata Mandelbrot: We are currently cooperating with PT Inovação, who is behind the Formare LMS. [15:46] Profdan Netizen: They've got an island, and my understanding is that they're working on such. [15:46] Grog Waydelich: The SL pseudonyms must be a giant pain when teaching large classes in SL [15:46] Decka Mah: We are trying to come up with some convention for our student avatars to make teachign and assessment easier [15:46] Andabata Mandelbrot: But we are by no means under an exclusivity agreement, so I'd love to talk to Angel. [15:46] Andabata Mandelbrot: Tell me about it, Grog! [15:47] Andabata Mandelbrot: I've often lost track of who was who... [15:47] Grog Waydelich: So the LMS (Blackboard or whatever) could add a database field for SL names ? [15:47] Decka Mah: I tend to keep a list on hand of the RL = SL names as I found the HUD I had made for it too slow [15:47] Andabata Mandelbrot: Yes, that's the basic stuff... have an avatar per student, per virtual world. [15:47] Grog Waydelich: I guess if you have a good data flow between SL and the LMS, that could work [15:48] Andabata Mandelbrot: But then you need to think of other stuff, like where to record the attendance while you are recording it, and how to convert it to a decent-size data table afterwards, etc. [15:48] Grog Waydelich: a paper printout - now that's a good workaround :-) [15:48] Andabata Mandelbrot: Nothing really complex, but... [15:48] Decka Mah: We are trying avatars with real first name and a code number at the end [15:48] Andabata Mandelbrot: ...when you try to do it, there are lots of little complications. [15:48] Decka Mah: so they are unique [15:48] Andabata Mandelbrot: That's why the complex thing isn't the programming - is understanding the problem. [15:49] Grog Waydelich: Even then there would be several students with the same first name and you'd be reaching for your printout [15:49] Decka Mah: The issue arises when the students want to collect a lot of inventory for use in class and they ahve a student av and a "play" av [15:49] Andabata Mandelbrot: But why force students to have a "school avatar"? Why not accept us all here as students anyway? [15:49] Andabata Mandelbrot: (for instance) [15:49] josmas Flores: i see a big problem with identities... who can assure taht is not my dog who's done my assignment> [15:49] Grog Waydelich: To me this is a problem that is so fundamental to how SL is set up that is unlikely to be solved by LL .. yet it is a hard problem for many business/education users [15:50] Andabata Mandelbrot: That's already the issue with e-learning ingeneral. [15:50] Profdan Netizen: Real names in profile, 1st life tab? [15:50] josmas Flores: true [15:50] Decka Mah: too slow to look all the time Profdan [15:50] Decka Mah: for formative assessment [15:50] Andabata Mandelbrot: There are two separate issues: learning and "stamping" (validating) [15:50] Profdan Netizen: Well, that's true. [15:50] Grog Waydelich: Yes, the 'profile' solution doesn't scalt to a class of 100+ [15:50] Andabata Mandelbrot: For teaching/learning, it doesn't matter who is behind the keyboard. [15:51] Decka Mah: we also considered a floating text device during class time with real name on it [15:51] Grog Waydelich: ah, but for assessment it matters a lot! [15:51] Andabata Mandelbrot: Only for "stamping" a document with the University's seal does that matter - not for assessment, but for validation. [15:51] Grog Waydelich: but you are recording attendance [15:52] Andabata Mandelbrot: Yes, but you know, the dog can be there, right? [15:52] josmas Flores: :D [15:52] Decka Mah: there would be a lucrative business in ghosting if assessment was done solely by SL live assessment [15:52] Grog Waydelich: I guess they can be afk or doing their Facebook! :-) [15:52] Corwin Carillon is Offline [15:52] Andabata Mandelbrot: The point is: you don't pass students because they were present, you fail them if they weren't. Thought of it? [15:52] Grog Waydelich: same thing? [15:53] Andabata Mandelbrot: You demand a presence to "push them" into studying, not because you actually need that presence. [15:53] Grog Waydelich: I mean, a ghost user can still work around it [15:53] Grog Waydelich: True [15:53] Profdan Netizen: Well, how is a ghost user any different in an LMS online course and SL? [15:53] Andabata Mandelbrot: Let's say that in a group, some miss class out of carelessness, some because they prefer to study alone. [15:53] Grog Waydelich: Anyway I am not in favour of taking attendance at Uni level, though we are sometimes forced to [15:53] Decka Mah: it isn't Profdan [15:54] Grog Waydelich: good point Profdan [15:54] Andabata Mandelbrot: Exactly. It's a matter of statistics. If you require attendance, some of the most lazy students/unmotivated end up being "saved" in the end. [15:54] Andabata Mandelbrot: But if you are really concerned about validation, that's much easier to do. [15:54] Andabata Mandelbrot: For instance, how can you be sure that assignments done at home and delivered on your desk weren't done by the parrot? [15:54] Decka Mah: Nothing like the pop-quiz element of surprise LOL [15:54] Andabata Mandelbrot: It's the same thing. [15:55] Grog Waydelich: You mean, knowing who did the work on a piece of assessment? [15:55] Andabata Mandelbrot: yup [15:55] Decka Mah: http://www.schoolsucks.com/ [15:55] josmas Flores: assessment sucks D: [15:56] Andabata Mandelbrot: I'm supportive of end-of-semester physical presence assessment, not for grading, but for detecting fraud. [15:56] josmas Flores: that sounds kinda sensible [15:56] josmas Flores: but still hate it :D [15:56] Decka Mah: Open book written exam that applies the learning to novel problems can really sort out who undererte learns and who isn't up to the mark [15:56] Profdan Netizen: Well, just show students how easy it is for you to find stuff on schoolsucks.com and it no longer becomes an attractive alternative. [15:56] Andabata Mandelbrot: Well, for instance, in our programming labs courses we have used a gimmick [15:57] Grog Waydelich: Yes, the thing is, the student has to be there in person. [15:57] Andabata Mandelbrot: They program their projects any way they like [15:57] Andabata Mandelbrot: we provide help once a week (but they may shy away if not doing anything) [15:57] josmas Flores: a good programmer can also have a bad day [15:57] Andabata Mandelbrot: But twice a semester we get students into a room and provide them a written "supplement" to their projects. [15:58] Andabata Mandelbrot: If they really programmed their code, they can do it in an instant. [15:58] Grog Waydelich: But the guy whose friend did all his assignments will only have bad days. If we don't assess, we set up big problems [15:58] Andabata Mandelbrot: If their code is... borrowed... they usually can't do much in an hour. [15:59] Decka Mah: seems we are onto autehntic assessment now [15:59] Grog Waydelich: Although .. we even have cases of students pretending to be other students at 'in person' assessment! Even though they have photo ID cards. [15:59] Andabata Mandelbrot: :-) [15:59] josmas Flores: it does sound sensible andab [15:59] Grog Waydelich: Well it is an 'identity' issue - relevant to SL [16:00] Andabata Mandelbrot: The point is: we don't need to assess if the student did the assignment. We need to make sure the student is as capable/knowledgeable as if he did. [16:00] josmas Flores: true [16:00] Grog Waydelich: Still, the fact that I am whinging about teaching suggest we have gone over time :-) [16:00] Grog Waydelich: Should we wrap up for today? [16:00] Andabata Mandelbrot: OK [16:00] Andabata Mandelbrot: It's midnight here [16:01] Andabata Mandelbrot: Please feel free to IM another day for a guided tour of our projects